certain slant of light

haha!

...it's because he's such a brilliant theologian, right?

PS Why don't we transition services from pansy organ/piano to heavy metal, which appeals to heterosexual, win-a-fight, punch-you-in-the-noise dudes?

...and by "noise," I meant "nose" but I think perhaps the slip was appropriate...

Hm, I don't necessarily think of organ/piano music as pansy, but maybe that's because I'm female. And not all "dudes" like heavy metal. I think the problem might be more the content of some songs ("Jesus is my boyfriend") than the style, but then again some contemporary styles are emotionally manipulating, IMHO. I know I'm getting into the subject of gender differences, which can get fuzzy, but the question remains: where are the men in the pews?

If I were a man, I would defy the odds by: a) going to church, b)going to college, and c)singing in choirs. Those three activities have taken up a good bit of my life and they have all involved women as a majority. Especially the last one:).

Hear, hear. And yes, especially on the last one. I'm singing in a UTC summer choir that has several Bach choir and CSO singers in it, and man it's heaven to listen to some of those men sing! Singing is only pansy when men sing like pansies.

Do you like John Rutter's For the Beauty of the Earth? I've always disliked that for its flowery style. It's too much.

I was being facetious because it IS so hard to pin down what exactly appeals to a gender, since genders are made up of rather diverse people.

There IS a stereotype of organists as gay and a discreet way of asking about someone's sexual orientation used to be "Does he sing in the choir?" or something similar.

I feel perhaps that this effeminate characterization of the organ/piano/choir is because of cultural associations that tie piano/singing with the home parlor (and therefore the feminine sphere), because so many women took music lessons during the Victorian era as a way to "decorate" their homes.

Heavy metal, on the other hand, is largely produced by beefy, muscled, growling musicians (although there are several that draw on classical vocal styles). As one friend put it "a metal musician is the blond beast," referring to Nietzsche's theory of the Ubermensch and how closely metal musicians match that ideal.

So there are distinct cultural associations regarding certain kinds of music and we can't ignore them even if we recognize that these associations *are* socially constructed.

Interesting stuff. I hadn't thought about the Victorian era and how it influences our music-making today. In all those Jane Austen books, the women are considered refined and cultured if they know how to sing and play on the pianoforte. The men, on the other hand? They have more "important" things to do, I suppose.

But back before then, didn't men sing together in the pubs and inns? That was their recreation, at least in the lower classes. They sang stories to each other.

I've always thought that an ensemble of women sounds pretty if they really work at it and have good voices. But an ensemble of men, if even halfway decent, sounds amazing. I don't know why that is.

Jenni, I feel the same way about that version of FTBOTE. It was a regular on Mother's Day at LMPC, but I always disliked it for the same reason you mention. I prefer the original hymn tune.

You want to go to that church, Heidi? (For the boys ok... I'm not arguing with that, but if they are like this guy?!) He almost made me have an involuntary movement of half digested coffee up my gullet (As an aside: Is that manly and counter cultural for you, or just a bit revolting?)... Mostly because of his use of the word "chick" and "dude" (Perhaps if I met him it would be different... He seams like a "plugged-in" type of guy, and I am probably with him on most theological issues...)

I thought his particularly poignant anti-analysis went a bit like this: "All the innovative dudes are at home watching football..." All the innovative dudes are couch potatoes, who go fishing on the weekends?!... Oh yeah, and they hunt, and drink beer: Grrrr... He sounded like such a salesman with a lazy lade-back feel like-me be-like-me. His point is more relevant in Russia than the US...besides; he is trying to appeal to a male ego based on gender stereotyping culture-formed-over the last well, let's say 300 years to include some form of Victorianism, not the stable since creation Man-Woman relationship that he does believe in (headship-sort of stuff). Wild at heart? Drum on your bongo drums somewhere else... Lest he make David, Paul and Peter into (American) MENs Men: ravish-me comic book thug come-superheroes. Yeah, ok so Jesus whipped the temple-blasphemers but he sure was no 21st century Monster-truck lover or and this is perhaps more relevant a fresh water salmon catcher.

The music aspect of Contemporary Christianity might be true, but I doubt that is the main reason why men in the age group of 22-25 don't go to church. It certainly more complex than that... but he is using a glimpse-signifier (translate: example) to illustrate his point.

The metallic music comment, Funke, is an interesting one, particularly the characterisation of the metallic musician. That might be why metal is still flying in the Nordic European countries?!? I certainly think that if this pastor was plugged into the musical scene of the atheist-agnostic crowd (which no doubt he is, but somehow doesn't make the connections) he would hear two things... One is an emo-alt (emphasis on EMO-t-ional music) sound that every know and again gets going a bit more speed (think Interpol), or you have your John Mayer (make love to myself/my guitar-narcissism turn women into sluts in a story like DMB), or finally you have some "real" street thug kill-you-mother-F*cker and sex up your little bi?ch... hip-hop... So on the one hand you have a romanticised (feminine if you will) version of reality (Emo, Dave Mathews etc) and on the other you have a culture of woman-derogation. So even in popular culture you have the chick-dudes and the rough-dudes.

The chick-dudes also don't always go to church... and there are some rough-dudes that doo... Obviously he is one of them.

Lau, you are funny. Which "dude" are you? I think Driscoll is trying to appeal to a certain sub-group of American culture and his thoughts certainly cannot apply everywhere or to everyone.

For instance, men in absentia at church is a global problem, and yes, there are many different reasons for this. The music in the "southern church" probably isn't too emo, but more of the foot-stomping, hand-clapping variety. I don't know, but the one church I visited in Benin was that way. And yet, women are in the large majority in those churches. Why is that?

In America, I think there are multiple reasons as well. That group of young men he is referring to have a lot of pressure on them, even in the post-women's-lib age. The ones in the middle and upper classes are trying to climb the career ladder and don't have time for church. The ones in the poorer classes are often in jail for selling drugs so they can make money, while the single moms are taking care of their kids and go to church because it is their only stability.

Also, I wonder if the fact that male homosexuals (who claim to be Christians) don't feel welcome in most churches is skewing these numbers. They have their own enclaves that perhaps we don't "count." Just a suggestion.

I am not and have never been a "dude". Outside of the context of the Big Lebowski and humour thereof, I don't like the word. You Anna are certainly no "chick." Chicks run about at Easter time all cute and fluffy, yellow and make little noises. They are the product of what we didn't eat.

This guy is "translating" Piper and others into, hipedy-hipster language... recycling something to make it "appeal" to the "un-reached." Man... do I just not like Consumer-driven market-place communicated-Church... But then again God or Paul or both of them said that we should be Greek to the Greeks, Roman to the Romans and I guess Indie to the Indie crowed and perhaps --and this is more likely in this Pastors case-- a jock to jocks?

What is this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJe8xz6Pc88&mode=related&search=

RGGggggggggg: Im a maaaaaaaaaan!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8aZXeFRSBA&mode=related&search=

And the backdrop of a miltary cemetary for this little blurb is what for?

Why are people so worried about living in 50/50 gender mixed worlds? And why do we want these so-called "dudes" who are so insecure they won't come to church if they feel it might be "emotional" or "feminine." This is the kind of sex-obsession that is really harmful.

It's not so much an issue of numbers for numbers's sake, but it's what the numbers indicate. On average, churches are attended by 61% women and 39% men, and the weekly activities draw 70-80% women participants. I found another stat that says that 90% of boys raised in the church stop going to church by their 20th birthday. 25% of married churchgoing women go to church without their husbands. So it's not that we need to strive for 50/50, but that we need to address the problem of male apathy towards the church. Male church attendance overall has dropped something like 38% over the last 20 years. I don't think Driscoll accurately identifies the root problems, what with his caricatures of manliness and his marketing approach that Lauri pointedly criticizes, but at least he recognizes the problem. Actually, I think he's funny in a strange way - unabashedly blunt, no qualifying statements, but not abrasive. I take him with a grain of salt and find him mildly entertaining. Besides, Lauri, don't you think Colbert would like this guy? :)

The feminization of the church is all Norman Rockwell's fault! :)

Who's praying?

Again, interesting to note the dynamics.

Now these are REAL dudes!

PS Pardon the underwear scene...

Yeah, this guy needs to be taken with an entire salt shaker. His "marketing" might be kind of annoying, but I'm sure I could find much worse examples of church marketing. And the numbers speak for themselves - more than half of his church is male. Not that we should be striving for 50/50 (although that is a nice ratio in a choir), but we do need to recognize the problem. Although I am hesitant to do any marketing. The important thing is to preach the gospel, with everything that it involves: love, courage, etc. Heck, I'm a woman and I don't even like the feminization of worship. I don't like emotionally manipulating songs or touchy-feely sermons. Men don't seem to like them either, it's not just that they're insecure. They may just flat-out not like it.

Driscoll's use of the words "chick" and dude" seem to me to just be funny, not his attempt to be relevant to the culture. I agree with Anna that he is trying to appeal to a certain American subculture. And he's in America, so it makes some sense. Although, again, I think the preaching of the gospel should trump any slick marketing. But for some reason I kind of like this guy, even with his misguided language choice and ideas about gender. Or maybe I just like him because I get tired of people qualifying their statements (myself included).

Lau, he might be "a jock to the jocks," but if you look at the pastoral staff at Mars Hill, they are all white men, many of whom look like they could be in an Emo band together.

Also, I have a problem with calling emotional manipulation and touchy-feely sermons "feminization." Let's not associate this with one sex or another, that's just buying into stereotypes. If something's bad, it's bad, don't downplay a sex along with that. I think the church needs to stop putting people in boxes, women, men, singles, couples, we don't have enough under-eights in this church, we don't have enough over-forty-fives. Concentrate on what God's given you instead of saying, well yes, you women are nice, but where are the men. Preach the gospel without a damn agenda!

I apologize for my choice of wording there. I guess I had feminization in the back of my mind as a word that I've seen used elsewhere, both in relation to church and to education. I also have in the back of my mind the many studies I've seen that women like to talk about their feelings and thoughts more than men. That of course is a stereotype (I myself am certainly an exception), but it's based on some evidence.

I totally agree that the church compartmentalizes too much. The church is not an idealized collection of various demographics, but a body of people who are sinful and broken and saved by grace. I think the best approach is not "the church needs dudes," but "the church needs Jesus," and men, women and children will follow.

The term "feminization" comes from Old Skool Gender Studies, but was criticized by other feminist 'hoods for the reasons Linnea suggested. However, "feminization" refers more to characteristics stereotypically associated with a particular gender and not necessarily to the gender itself. But, I suppose, perpetuating a stereotype isn't exactly a solution, either. Perhaps the solution isn't so much to say "feminine" or "masculine" as to say "a particular kind of feminine" or "a particular kind of masculine."

Also, I was just thinking: Peter the man who cut off the soldier's ear (an action for which he was rebuked) was also the man who said "Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble." (1 Peter 3:8)

Jesus who cleansed the temple also said "Blessed are the meek." As in most theological problems, I suppose the problems arise when we want to pick and choose our favorite attributes.

...I mean, as Linnea pointed out, would we need niche ministries if we preached the whole gospel?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W91sqAs-_-g

That church needs some good'ol Canada all up in its social criti-chick-ism...

Not that I trust this sight fully... and would like to see some of their sourcing on this but the quotes seem to be feasible:
http://www.evangelicalright.com/2006/10/mark_driscoll_meek_mild_as_if_1.html

"After church tonight you will go home and you will eat chicken, not human, because of the spread of Christianity... go to a country where there hasn't been the spread of Christianity and they're having human for dinner."

Aside from the quote being asinine, having referred to Chicks as women... (while being a joke; and No Heidi I think he really uses that word not as a humorous way of refereeing to women but because he believes it's hip- which makes him the object of the joke not the joker...) allow me to humour myself and perhaps you and say that he's not eating "chick's" either, I hope.

In conversation with Anna I realized yesterday that SAT tests are good for something:
Mark Dricoll is to Church as Averill Levine is to... Indy music?

I am also not sure that Paul wore a toga when he spoke on Mars Hill (might have but I don't know?)

This quote right here is perhaps not what he actually said and if it is it must have been taken out of context, but I'll tell you what... this mentality (God the Father hates us) is something that I have come across in circles like these (Piper et. al.) and they have a danger attacked to them that is unbearably nasty:

"God can't even look at us because he is so disgusted... You have been told that God is loving, gracious, merciful, kind, compassionate, wonderful, and good... That is a lie... God looks down and says 'I hate you, you are my enemy, and I will crush you." Yeah, perhaps in the OT to the Philistines... But not to me personally...

Oh and one more thing... That youtube production he was in which placed him in a military cemetery... I would like to see him walking around Iraq right now talking like a fool about the heroism of war, encouraging a stereotype of male GRRrr that is simply cultural.

He also claimes that when you get the men, the hurch grows. According to social theory that is true, women follow the men because men are powerful and hold power over other men and women. But the early church was not made up of one "type" of people... Ethnically perhaps but the gospel spread... Age was not an issue and Gender was also not an issue.

I like a church where I can meet somebody who will most likely die next year. Not because Iw ant them to die but because it is a relfection of God to me I am simply not aware of existed unless I met them (I mean really met them) in church. I have more to say about all this and more... but hey... Aside from that I maintain that I agree with him on about 98% of the issues as far as I can tell.

I see a distinction between niche marketing and addressing the problem that men are leaving the church in droves. Driscoll targets a certain niche of men, yes, and he might be wrong in his approach. But the overall issue is not just a gender issue. Wouldn't you agree that there's a problem when so many women are going to church without their husbands? The problem will not solved by having some kind of agenda, but the fact remains that the lost, no matter their gender, need to be reached. Most of the lost just happen to be men right now.

Well Laura that depends on if "going to church" saves you... I remember a cov. prof of some renown to us (who will remain unnamed) telling me sort of in a more or less among us sort of way, that Church attendance and general church culture are not a good measure as to whether somebody is a "good" christian. So, maybe the problem is actually women?! not men? Its just that we seem to have an overly scientific (statistical) view of the saved... Which I am not sure is the way God looks at his children. I have a feeling that we will be surprised at who is with God and who is not at the end of the day. But that does not take away from the fact that men (particularly of my age group are not ready for commitment...)

also, according to the same studies that show that women are more "emotional" women also care more about social status, which church-going often brings.